Dom-space and sub-space

13 July 1997

The principal participants were:

• Alexa, a real-life Mistress and her (female) slave dina
• Blkprince, a real-life Master with his (female) slave destiny
• LordMilz, a real-life Dom
• ffairlady, an online submissive
• frogaroo, a real-life Dom and his (female) submissive alycia
• MrEos, a real-life Dom

<Alexa^^> ok, well. We are here to discuss sub-space and dom-space ...

<Alexa^^> there are so many definitions out there but I feel that it is the personal definitions that count most

<Blkprince> difficult to define in words ... It's a feeling and a set of attitudes

<Alexa^^> tonight's talk will be logged and hopefully opinions and ideas will be used on the website

* Blkprince ponders as destiny sits beside him asking "How do you know when you have found it?"

<Alexa^^> one definition I found was interesting and might kick us off ...

* Blkprince listens

<Alexa^^> 'space' described as the phenomenon within the practice of BDSM that renders ecstasy beyond orgasm

<Alexa^^> a journey not so much a place ... described by some as 'flying', 'floating'' or just a 'head-space'

<Alexa^^> does any one here want to kick us off tonight?

* Blkprince ponders that definition ... Not always true ... and not clear

* Alexa^^ opens the floor ...

<Blkprince> No ... flying is a definite thing that has little to do with sub-space

<Alexa^^> Bp? Would you like to give us your definition?

<Blkprince> As I said, we are trying to define a set of feelings and a set of attitudes ...

<Blkprince> in that sense it is very individual and unique

<Alexa^^> the floor is open ...

* LordMilz^ does not dispute that 'flying' *may* be a different thing - but the definition that Alexa was giving is "described by some as ... "

*> Alexa^^ smiles

<LordMilz^> I expect that many people describe it different ways

<Alexa^^> it may be better to focus on the first of the topics: sub space ... Would anyone care to comment from personal experience?

<Blkprince> Hmmmmmm. Ok, try it this way ...

<Blkprince> When I mention sub-space ... those who have experienced it give me a word ...

<Blkprince> Soft ... pliant ...?

* ffairlady had an experience a few months back ...

* Blkprince listens to ff

<ffairlady> i am still not sure if it was "subspace" or not but it was a feeling of warmth, soft, erotic It was a total giving of myself over to the online master

<ffairlady> it was like a floating ... almost out of body thing ... not scary ... but wonderfully pleasant

* Blkprince nods at ff ... that is exactly what destiny has been saying ff ... she isn't sure either

<ffairlady> it was incredible

* Blkprince grins at ff ... Yes

<ffairlady> i talked to a few subs i know online about it

<ffairlady> they all called it subspace

<MrEos> offers the idea that X-space might include an intense feeling of communing with your partner

* ffairlady nods at MrEos

<ffairlady> the funny thing in all of this was when it happened

* Blkprince finds that sub-space is lonely while in it, but the closeness comes as you come out of it

<ffairlady> we were not in the middle of a scene ... we were talking and just beginning to play

<ffairlady> the one thing i regret ... is it was not rl

<ffairlady> it was such a downer for the rest of the day ...

* Blkprince nods at ff ... Yes, destiny has had that experience ... a word, a look, a touch creates it

<Alexa^^> ffairlady would/could you describe it in terms of an emotional rather than physical experience or them both combined?

<Blkprince> I think it is BOTH and destiny agrees

<Alexa^^> dina describes it for her as a state of being now ... only the depth varies ...

<ffairlady> i would say both, but more emotional ... or it was for me as it was on line ... in real life it would be both i would think

<Alexa^^> for me it means something else again ...

* Blkprince smiles ... destiny agrees with dina ... It is being "here" and "now"

<ffairlady> i agree with depth of feeling though ... as i have felt it since then but not as intense

* Alexa^^ nods to fl

<Blkprince> Depth is one dimension, but what does it mean in definitional terms ... How deep is deep?

<ffairlady> i have a question for the subs ...?????

<Alexa^^> fl has the floor ...

<ffairlady> do you think it's the closeness or trust you have in the Master that allows that special space?

<ffairlady> or should i say Master or Mistress

<Alexa^^> dina responds ...

<Alexa^^> without the trust she cannot enter the place ...

<Blkprince> Destiny says a definite "YES" and being comfortable in letting go of who you are

<Blkprince> Yes trust is central ...

<Blkprince> Destiny describes it as a feeling of entrusting another with the totality of who you are

<Alexa^^> dina and Alexa agree that for both of us her space is multi-dimensional and only able to be there at any level due to the closeness we share and trust level ...

* ffairlady nods

* LordMilz^ has to agree with Alexa - both on space he has witnessed and has found himself in

<Blkprince> Yes Alexa ... I agree and destiny agrees ... She also says it is in part LETTING yourself be vulnerable

<Alexa^^> yes, but can a sub enter space without these things?

* Alexa^^ likes dropping these kind of questions ...

* LordMilz^ thinks they can - and it becomes dangerous

<Blkprince> Destiny says ... NO ... not without trust ... and I agree

* Alexa^^ nods to Bp ...

<MrEos> agrees with LM

<Alexa^^> dina describes it as scary but has entered space unwillingly to some degree in the past without these things ...

<MrEos> When need or hunger is so strong for sub-space that trust becomes a luxury

<Alexa^^> from my own experiences I have little or no control over 'sub space' once it has been emotionally triggered.

<Blkprince> Destiny agrees with what dina says ... And yes ... you can be sub-space hungry!

<Alexa^^> trust or no trust, for me the space it not as warm and fuzzy as it is primarily for dina.

* Blkprince nods ... No, the sub-space I have been in is not warm and fuzzy either!

<ffairlady> how is it different, Alexa?

<ffairlady> see that is my predicament ... was it or was it not subspace?

* Alexa^^ hmms ... it is really a personal thing ... but for me to enter subspace sets off many emotional triggers I would rather not be there ... as well as physical ones.

<ffairlady> i was told by one sub that as it was online it was most probably not

<frogaroo> are you thinking about anxiety, Alexa?

* Blkprince nods ... Yes that is a feature of YOUR sub-space Alexa ... Mine can be a very dangerous place to be in

<LordMilz^> for me it depends on who I am with

<Alexa^^> yes, I know Bp. I do not mean to generalise.

<Alexa^^> for some it is an entity ... others an emotion, fl ... for some, like dina, a place of surrender.

<Alexa^^> - > frogaroo ... no it is different again to that ...

<warrigal> for me it is a comfort thing

* Alexa^^ nods to warrigal ... how so warrigal? you don't have to answer ...

<frogaroo> This feeling of warmth and fuzz reminds me of the description of a drug induced state. Is sub-space a dependence?

* Alexa^^ looks at her slave and thinks it could be *chuckles*, but no ... not as we see it frogaroo

<Alexa^^> it would be easy to see how it could be though ... I am not sure ... any comments?

<Alexa^^> would anyone like to approach the discussion point of "how does one get a sub into subspace?"

<LordMilz^> for some submissives - I expect it can become an addiction - depending on what it does to them

<frogaroo> for me that transition from real-world to x-space is difficult

<MrEos> ... and for some it can be as simple as being told to kneel

<warrigal> i find i have to focus internally to get there but once i am there it is easy to stay there

* Alexa^^ nods to Eos ... for dina it can be as simple as how I have her dress

<frogaroo> I prefer a ritualised -or pre-written device- entry into play

<Alexa^^> what about returning from space to the rl? ... fl has mentioned her 'let down' because of the vl nature of her experience ...

<frogaroo> one has to shed the real-world off. Like before a stage act.

<Alexa^^> has anyone had difficulty getting their 'heads back?'

<Alexa^^> dina finds it harder to exit deeper levels of space and is describing it as a 'roller-coaster' for a while ... until she has her 'head back' ...

<warrigal> sometimes it has taken a while for me to come back but for me time is all i have needed

<Alexa^^> for me the ritual emphasis in is on closure more-so than entry ...

<frogaroo> This is a good point. Maybe I worry too much about making the right entry ...

<frogaroo> Ritualizing the climax/exit. I like it!

* LordMilz^ wonders what it feels like to those submissives here when they are in the middle of space?

<frogaroo> It hurts?

<frogaroo> :)

* Alexa^^ smiles

<LordMilz^> ok - if it hurts - what does it feel like coming back from it???

<LordMilz^> (others should join in)

<Alexa^^> dina describes a trance like state in deeper levels ...

<ffairlady> i agree with dina ...

<Alexa^^> dina says it depends on how you come back ...

<Alexa^^> if dina is left without slow comforting back her mind runs riot

<frogaroo> alycia says its simple ... because she exits with an orgasm

<ffairlady> for me Alexa that was lacking but i think the after-affects would have been better if i had that

<Alexa^^> she says ... closing the sessions slowly and ritually helps her get back ...

<Alexa^^> ok ... are there any questions? Any one would like to ask of this half of the topic before we move on?

<Alexa^^> any comments or opinions ...

<Alexa^^> then lets move to Dom space ... would someone like to start the ball rolling ... so to speak

<Alexa^^> the first point to clarify I guess would be ... does Dom space exist? ...

<Blkprince> It is Power ... a feeling of intense power

<Blkprince> Yes, it exists

* LordMilz^ agrees it exists

<Blkprince> I get to it with a good submissive

<Alexa^^> care to define power, Bp?

<Blkprince> She gives me the power

<frogaroo> it exists for me. It's very mental ... cerebral.

<LordMilz^> but again - it is as individual as sub-space

<frogaroo> power only exists in the hands of others

<Blkprince> Yes ... control ... obedience. knowing you can require anything but don't necessarily do so

<frogaroo> control ...

<Alexa^^> Eos?

<MrEos> Hello?

<MrEos> I am supposed to say something?

<Alexa^^> no I was just wondering if you would like to input ... :)

<MrEos> I mentioned about a sub going into sub-space when I tell her to kneel ... Well, I go into Dom-space at the same time, as she goes down

<frogaroo> Dom-space is surrealist, in part, for me

<MrEos> I become very focussed

* Blkprince nods at MrE and frogaroo

<MrEos> I feel an intense connection

<MrEos> I almost feel what she does

* Blkprince smiles ... i know what is going to happen next

<MrEos> Really?

* Alexa^^ nods with Eos ...

<frogaroo> the absurdity and intensity of such space is a wee bit nihilist!

* Blkprince grins at frogaroo

<Blkprince> Yes ... it is part of the having control ... the power to make things happen

<Blkprince> I tend to have MORE of it in dom-space than at other times ... But it is always there!

<LordMilz^> you have to be careful though - not to confused "knowing" with being in dom-space

<LordMilz^> it is possible to have that - and not be in dom-space

<LordMilz^> again - for me - it depends on who I am with

<Blkprince> Not for me ... I have it all the time ...

<LordMilz^> I am talking about how it manifests itself

* Blkprince grins ... I wander around the shopping centre in dom-space and everyone scatters :)

* Blkprince grins ... and destiny MELTS!

* LordMilz^ does it at work - and wonders why he doesn't have any friends there ;)

<Alexa^^> to me being in Dom space depends greatly on the scene I am about to enter ... but it is also, like with dina, a state of being, as well - though not intrusively so to others ...

<Alexa^^> I agree with Eos's statement that when my slave kneels ... I seem to enter a space along with her ...

<LordMilz^> yes - I agree with Alexa on that one

<Blkprince> Hmmm, I don't have to have anyone kneel to feel it

* Alexa^^ shakes her head smiling

* Alexa^^ has actually seen this happen, everyone ... some send out stronger "Dom waves" than others *grins*

<LordMilz^> hrmmmmmm - I speak of the 'kneeling' as an example of an event

<frogaroo> posture, regard and speech matter

<Alexa^^> I didn't say that was the only time ... but that it intensified depending on the scene or day, etc ...

* Blkprince nods at frogaroo ... But are these things NECESSARY?

* Alexa^^ nods yes ...

<LordMilz^> just as there are events that deepen sub-space - there are also events that deepen dom-space

<frogaroo> ... such as?

<LordMilz^> Alexa gave such an example - again - it is an individualistic thing

<Alexa^^> dina picks up on my Dom-space really well ... she also triggers it at times ...

<Blkprince> destiny says it is having "presence" ... if you have that, you can get to dom-space

<ffairlady> do you feel the dom-space with all subs or only special ones? just curious?

<Blkprince> No , not with all ff ... only with the ones I have "connection" ...

<Alexa^^> because of my work fl ... I have to at time be able to 'get it up' in crude terms ... though most times it is an instant reaction the minute I enter a dungeon ...

* LordMilz^ finds that the "triggers" for deepening it only come from specific subs

<LordMilz^> it is like you can 'tell' that they know what they are doing - but at the same time not know

<LordMilz^> if that makes sense

* Alexa^^ nods to LM definitely ... my work is a different feeling to my own subs ...

* Alexa^^ would like to add that it is almost a natural reaction as much as a instant one ...

<frogaroo> the temperature is rising :)

* Alexa^^ chuckles ... down frog:)

* Blkprince looks at Alexa with a grin on his face

* Alexa^^ smiles well ...

<Alexa^^> ok ... back to the discussion ... *coughs*

* Blkprince coughs in sympathy

<Alexa^^> ok ... next point being ... can a dom be 'moved into space? and if so how?

<MrEos> suggests kneeling in front of him

<MrEos> is heavily into kneeling subs

<LordMilz^> in some ways we have been saying that

<Blkprince> Yes I think so ... by the behaviour of an subbie

<Alexa^^> destiny? any ideas??

<Alexa^^> descriptions, destiny? :)

<LordMilz^> certain subs trigger certain responses in certain Dom/mes

<LordMilz^> and vice versa

<Blkprince> Yes, respect. Proper demeanour ...

* LordMilz^ agrees with Bp - on the respect, etc.

* Alexa^^ smiles.

* Blkprince nods ... destiny says by appropriate wriggling, kneeling and proper forms of address.

* Blkprince notes destiny's wriggling is quite beyond any rational description

<frogaroo> I like to go straight into a scene. ie. I *come* to my sub`s place who awaits me

<frogaroo> I don't knock!

<frogaroo> Her place is also MY place, so I have to go out first :(

* Blkprince grins at frogaroo

<Alexa^^> apart from a sexual side is there a key?

<Alexa^^> dina makes what she calls "mild mischief". Not enough to get in trouble, but it works

<frogaroo> That's if you're dealing with *correction* Alexa

<LordMilz^> mischief either pisses me off and gets me angry - or I ignore it

<frogaroo> subs are not always *bad*

* Blkprince mutters ... dina=mischief!

* Blkprince notes that mischief, deliberate mischief is NOT a good way to get a dom moving

<frogaroo> no, because it triggers anger. Dangerous stuff.

* Alexa^^ nods to frog ... and chuckles as dina neglects Bp's last statement ...

* DrPaynn usually gets very cranky with deliberate mischief

<Alexa^^> there is a line she seems to know how to draw ...

* Blkprince will have words later

<Alexa^^> and there is a correct time for it ... - for us

<Alexa^^> there are ways that it can be dealt with other than correction ... as LM suggested simply to ignore it, etc ...

* Blkprince notes that he is somewhat distracted by a needy slave making a little mischief here right now

<Alexa^^> but for her it is a signal that she is 'needy' in some area ...

<LordMilz^> and of course, that can be the mistake in ignoring it

<Alexa^^> and it does trigger my attentions to it ...

* Blkprince agrees with Alexa ... damn right! Constant NEED!

* Alexa^^ nods to LM yes ...

<LordMilz^> finding time to learn that the MISCHIEF equates to NEED is important

* Alexa^^ looks to the quiet ones ... would anyone like to comment around the topic?

<frogaroo> Alycia and I communicate via e-mail (between home and office)

<frogaroo> This allows for a scenario to get into place

* Blkprince grins at frogaroo ... destiny e-mails me while siting 3 feet away from me!!!!!

<frogaroo> commands are also very specific

<Blkprince> OK ... question to the subbies ... How do you recognise a dom/me?

<Alexa^^> any comments as to defining Dom space?

<MrEos> suggests: Dom-space is a state of highly-focussed attention

<frogaroo> agrees with MrEos

* Blkprince doesn't think that is enough for a definition

* Alexa^^ defines it as a state of being that deepens in attentiveness and of intensity depending on the situation ...

<DrPaynn> focussed almost to the exclusion of everything else

* LordMilz^ does not think either of the 'spaces' is definable - because it is an individualistic thing

* Blkprince still thinks you have to build in power, control and obedience

<Blkprince> Yes, LM ... I DO agree and so does destiny

<MrEos> Obedience though is not the Dom's domain, but he can react to it

* LordMilz^ nods to Bp - when in space I may have power, control and obedience - or I may not - but it does not define it for me

* Blkprince nods at MrEos ... yes, but without it you can hardly be in dom/me space

* Alexa^^ nods and agrees with LM ... but ... this discussion has brought out some different opinions on both topics ... not necessarily definitions but important information for a newcomer to understand the variances ...

<MrEos> Bp, we want the reaction to obedience, not obedience itself

<LordMilz^> and I think you hit on it earlier, Bp - "when I am in the shopping centre I am in dom-space" - it is very much an attitude or mind-set - a projection of oneself into the surrounds in some way

<LordMilz^> and each of us do it differently - with different effects on different people

<MrEos> Just as there as many ways to submit as their are submissives, so is it with Dom/mes and domination

* Blkprince grins at LM ... yes

<Alexa^^> good, then that in itself is a definition of sorts ... :)

<Alexa^^> well, everyone ...

<Alexa^^> that brings this session to a close ...

<MrEos> wishes to point out that this is likely to appear, in some form or other, on the website

* ffairlady smiles

<Alexa^^> thank you all for joining us ...

<Alexa^^> this info will be edited by Eos ... and anything useful will be on the website soon :)

* Alexa^^ draws this meeting for the log ... to a close ...